Background:
Formally, I classify myself as a gnostic atheist, meaning I know there are no gods. Most atheists (from what I read online) appear to be agnostic atheists, people who are without gods but who do not claim to know there are no gods. Some people who fit this description simply call themselves agnostic. But, on formal forums, like reddit’s atheism subreddit, all who are without gods are atheists and agnostic or gnostic is a statement of whether they know or have doubt. Similarly, they allow for agnostic theists, those who believe in god(s) but have some doubt.
Regarding knowledge:
In no other area of discussion do we expect certainty or proof when we speak of knowledge. Nearly all knowledge, outside of mathematics, is empirical knowledge, gained by empirical evidence.
Empirical evidence, also known as sensory experience, is the knowledge received by means of the senses, particularly by observation and experimentation. The term comes from the Greek word for experience, ἐμπειρία (empeiría).
After Immanuel Kant, in philosophy, it is common to call the knowledge gained a posteriori knowledge (in contrast to a priori knowledge).
This is the type of knowledge we use when we say that we know that if we drop a ball on the surface of the earth, it will fall. I don’t hear a whole lot of people telling me, you can’t claim to know that because you can’t prove it. But, indeed we cannot. We know the ball will fall because it has done so the last gazillion times we performed the experiment.
For some reason, most people expect that if you say that you know there are no gods, that this one case of knowledge requires certainty. We do not require certainty from any other type of knowledge. Why do we demand certainty to state knowledge only when we are discussing knowledge of the existence or non-existence of gods?
Why this one?
Nowhere in the definition of knowledge does it ever specify that we must have 100% certainty.
So, when I say I know there are no gods, I mean it the same way that I know the ball will drop or that I know the planet on which we live will continue to rotate through the night causing the appearance of a sunrise in the morning, even if it is blocked by clouds. Night will become day as the earth rotates. I know it. You know it. We cannot prove it to 100% certainty. We only know that it has always done so before.
Classifying gods:
To begin our discussion, we have to classify gods. This way we can address different claims of gods individually.
Deist God:
I’ll call the first type deist, because that’s the most common form of belief in this type of god. Though, this god is also often discussed in philosophy as the prime mover. The Deist god put things in motion and left or became inactive or died or whatever. Regardless, the god who put things in motion and left is not here now. So, even those who believe in this sort of generic prime mover still essentially believe we live in a gods-free universe now. From a functional standpoint, they don’t expect any more god-related activity or behavior than I do as a gnostic atheist.
As such, this type of god hypothesis makes no testable predictions. A universe with such a god is indistinguishable from a universe with no such god. So, in addition to the point made above, from a scientific standpoint, we can call this a failed hypothesis, meaning that it fails to meet the criteria to be a scientific hypothesis.
Personal Gods:
Then there are personal gods. These gods are reputed to take action beyond just the creation of the universe. These are gods who demand or expect worship. They take action based on the saccharine adoration of their sycophantic followers.
If we can show statistically, that there is no effect from the saccharine adoration, worship of, and self-enslavement to such a deity, then we can show that the hypothesis that gods do respond to prayer is false and that this particular type of god does not exist.
That test has indeed been performed. God, if s/he exists does not, in fact, respond to prayer.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-prayer-prescription/
Intelligent Designer God:
One common hypothesis about god is that s/he (or they in the case of multiple gods) designed things. The Abrahamic God in particular, which is the most commonly discussed deity in my area of the world, but far from the only one, is even said to have created us in His image. (I do not know why anyone would assume that a god who birthed a universe is male rather than female. That makes little sense to me. But, so be it.)
If we can show that design did not take place, then we can show that there is no intelligent designer.
So, we can look for flaws in the “design” of our universe or ourselves. Looking for flaws in ourselves is the easiest thing to do because we actually know rather a lot about our flaws. And, from the human-centric standpoint that is very common among members of our species, we are the pinnacle of god’s creation (for an obviously self-centered and self-aggrandizing reason). So, we should be the least flawed creatures in the known universe.
Far from it.
For some reason, most male mammals, including humans, have nipples. These serve no reproductive function in human males. Though, some of us derive sexual pleasure from having them touched. I’m not sure how many religions would consider this a worthwhile feature.
Back pain. 80% of humans will experience back pain at some point in their lives. I know I do. Our back pain is evidence of our recent evolution from knuckle-walking apes. Their spines are straight and cause them no pain. But, we weren’t designed as bipeds. Rather we were kluged into it through evolution from quadrupeds. So, unlike bipedal birds, we have a lot of structural problems from our curved and recurved spine.
As an evolutionary kluge, it is functional enough. But, it is certainly bad design.
Knee pain. All the same applies to knee pain. Though, I don’t know the statistics on how many of us experience knee pain.
Hernias. The males of our species are particularly prone to hernias. These are caused by the fact that our testes start out up in our abdomens, where they are in the fish from which we evolved. But, for mammalian purposes, we need them to be in external sacks in order to regulate the temperature for sperm production, which must be slightly cooler than the rest of our body’s temperature.
So, if all goes well, at about 9 months old, our testes drop from our abdomen to our scrota leaving a cavity that makes us vulnerable to hernias.
Of course, good design would mandate that the testes just start out in the scrota where they belong in mammals. But, since all mammals are in the taxa sarcopterygii, the family of lobe-finned fish, our testes must drop and our risk of hernia is increased.
Though I know of no health problems caused by this bit of obvious bad design, it is a rather amusing piece of evidence that there was no designer. It’s a silly piece of human anatomy. Watch this video to see just how extremely silly this down and back nerve gets in a giraffe!
Empirical Arguments:
The laws of physics work. Every single time. Our most tried and proven theories such as General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics do not have exceptions in them. There are limits to the ranges at which they work, just as there are with Newton’s (so-called) Laws of Motion. But, within the realms for which they are defined, they always work.
We don’t need exceptions in our laws of physics for when some god or other intervenes.
If you drop a ball while standing on the surface of the earth, it will fall to the ground. Every single time. This is just what it means to be a scientific theory. We actually don’t have any proof that this is so. It just keeps on working every time we perform the experiment. This is how science works. It is all empirical.
With the exception of mathematics, which does in fact have proofs, everything we know about our world is empirical.
If you believe in god(s), you will never know whether the ball will fall to the ground when you drop it. Seriously. You don’t. If you believe there are god(s), you must believe that one of them might catch the ball and hold it suspended in mid-air, or cause it to fall up, or cause it to go sideways and hit you in the eye. You have no clue what will happen next in a godinfested universe.
Thank God there are no gods! /snark
Judgement Day God:
Many people believe in what, for lack of a better term, I’ll call Judgement Day God (JDG).
They worry that JDG will judge them for not believing correctly and thus will damn them to hell for eternity. There are many specific sets of rules about how to be judged worthy of heaven from the various religions, most notably the Abrahamic religion (deliberately singular), centered around a JDG.
All of these sects, subsects, and religions say that you must follow their specific instructions or burn forever. And, the instructions of each contradict the instructions of the others. So, it’s impossible to get it right.
Scary!
Or, is it?
Here’s the real question regarding a JDG, what is the likelihood that the creator of the universe is a psychopathic sadist?
This is the crux of the matter, pun intended.
In order for any god to create a hell in the first place, or even to allow one to be created, god must have at least some pretty serious sadistic tendencies. But, to actually send people there for eternity, not just until they repent, and to do so for the sole crime of non-belief or of following a wrong set of rules, is just plain psychopathic and sadistic with overtones of narcissism and cruelty beyond human imagining, or more literally, right out of the worst of human imaginings.
Now, I admit that such a god might not be possible to actively disprove. A universe in which the vast majority of the volume of space would be lethal in about 30 seconds? A JDG might find this amusing. A planet where 99% or more of all species that ever live go extinct? A JDG might find this entertaining, like watching gladiators fight lions. A basic body plan that causes 80% of people to suffer from back pain at some point in their lives? Hilarious, right?
So, perhaps all that’s left for this type of god is an argument from personal incredulity.
Is there even the remotest possibility that the creator of the universe deliberately created us to torture the vast majority of us for eternity?
Or, perhaps I can also add to the incredulity the question of whether such a god is worthy of worship? Is this a bad plot line for the ultimate horror movie? Do you really see a way to avoid such a god?
If there were such a psychopathic sadist as creator for the universe, would there be One True Set of Rules of the One True Religion will escape Hell? A sick fuck of a deity who would set things up this way would probably take the most pleasure in torturing precisely the people who worshiped correctly.
Remember, this is the same god who, according to the tradition of all of the Abrahamic sects, created the tree of knowledge with the best fruit in the garden, said eat all the other fruits but not this best fruit of all that will give you what humans crave most, knowledge.
Then the sick fuck sent a talking snake to convince them to violate the rule and eat the fruit. So, of course they did!
And, this psychopath jumped out from behind a bush and yelled “Gotcha!!”
I’m not personally capable of believing in a god who taunts people into doing bad things then yells gotcha. There’s nothing anyone could do to appease such a god.
More importantly, if someone managed to find some hard scientific evidence that such a god exists, I would cease to be an atheist. But, I would not become a worshiper of such a god. I would become a misotheist instead.
Such a god is worthy of contempt, scorn, and hatred, not sycophantic worship.
Again, thank God there are no gods! /snarkety snark snark
Conclusion:
None of the above types of gods exist in our universe today.
TL;DR: Deist God is already assumed not to exist or be powerless today, leaving us in a gods-free universe now. Personal gods are shown not to exist by the lack of effectiveness of prayer. Intelligent Designer gods are shown not to exist by obvious bad design. The concept of a psychopathic Judgement Day God who would set things up as necessary for there to be a hell and a judgement day is beyond ludicrous. There is no action you could take to prevent a sadistic JDG from torturing you, were there such a creature. Be glad there’s no evidence of this creature.
There are no gods.
P.S. Show me a single shred of hard evidence and I’ll reconsider. I’m not going to deny hard scientific evidence. But, if anyone does find any hard evidence, I might become a misotheist.
The Misanthropic Principle 
Amen, Brother!
The war of the Angels was BEFORE god created MANkind..
In the war, the devil was Tied to a stone forever to Stay there..
Then we claim the DEVIL did this, the devil did that..
WE call it Gods law…But really they are laws for people to GET ALONG..to QUIT being an ass.
Then we call others, MANS LAWS..which is even more stupid, as they are ALL based on GODS LAW. at least to Things that SAY are parts of the bible..
My idea of GOD, tends to be a comedian…He created this place and has been Laughing at us Since..
THOSE that understand the bible, understand the OLD/NEW testament, as well as WHERE/WHAT Christians came from..You are JEWISH..
Many of our Human Physical problems come from Current advancements in the World..
VERY FEW animals were raised to LIVE on ROCK..
It destroys feet, Ankles, Knees, HIPS, and back..
You will understand this, many WONT..
I think there are TIMES in history where MEN(I dont see it in women as there is little history of it)..FORGET everything he has LEARNED and goes APE SHIT STUPID..
We have Lost knowledge Many times from the great libraries(proven that they were a MESS and not much was there) to Persecuting ANYONE that didnt AGREE with them…the IDEAS that Im stronger, so I am RIGHT…I can YELL louder so I AM RIGHT..any of many justifications to PROVE 1 person is RIGHT..
HOW in HELL could 1 person control so many people to create a World of death and despair..WOULD a GOD DO THIS??
EVEN NOW, religious people have come up with an Explanation, that ..is JUST STUPID..’it was in the bible’.,..
ITS STILL IN THE BIBLE…
reading the Old bibles and comparing, is so much Fun, but the REALISM is that BEFORE the printing Press, NO COMMON MAN could READ the bible..it was WHAT I SAY IS TRUTH, so SHUT UP, and do as I SAY..
HOW is that GODS LAW and how he would do things COMPARED to today..
Its interesting, that MANY of the old tribal traditions of men and women WERE PRETTY GOOD…they were understood to SHARE things..Work with each other..
(when we came to the Americas, it was the SAME ideals)(SHARE) then some religious people and WHITE MEN changed a WHOLE nation to some ODDBALL corrupt idea of GOD AND WAR..
I cant say that the American Indians were perfect, they had wars for Land, NOT for Materials..as WHITE MEN did..
WE ran around the world, taking religion with us, and Sailors that NEVER acted as religion SAYS they should..
I would love to see religion to get serious, and start KICKING people out because they ARE NOT ACTING like Christians..
I cant tell the Good from the Evil(??) All i see is Justification for a persons actions..and being FORGIVEN for being an IDIOT..
I dont believe in the god of others…IF there is one, he is FOR THE WORLD, not for Mankind(specifically)..and as LONG as we are IDIOTS he isnt going to help. GOD has mo control over mankind, even if he WANTS to be stupid on purpose..Love Hippocracy..
This is like Manufacturing..WE DO IT THE CHEAPEST, EASIEST way possible and GOD save the animals..we WONT create a better way to get rid of pollution and all the MESS we create. BURY it and let the next buy deal with it..
as far as IM concerned, that isnt in ANY religion..
I see Doctors as a Stagnant group..Ever since we discovered we can MAKE drugs to cover systems,. its the IDEA that the BODY HEALS ITSELF, IF you can give it enough time..
WE dont know HOW our bodies REALLY work..its a Group of Organisms that are working together to Help/protect/SURVIVE…and we dont even know how to care for these little creatures.. as soon as MAN(not women) took over medicine(based on the idea that MEN KNOW BETTER in the bible) they TOOK away what Women had been doing for millennia..
We are at a time in human history where we have destroyed MOST of nature..at least on 1/2 of the world…the PARTs we can FARM.. We have expanded to the point this planet can Help help or protect or FEED US..
We use Chemicals to replicate the SAME things that USED to be abundant in the wild..
we use chemicals Because we dont want to use the REAL thing, because of COST..its cheaper to make it with chemicals then make it REAL..(the Christian way??)
its funny that we SHIP out more corn and wheat to other countries then we EAT in this country..
Iv noticed something funny about FOOD..Grains are causing problems..Even a Dentist in the 1920-30’s figured something out..Why do teeth in developed nations Fail, MORE often then those of NON-ADVANCED areas.. it came down to 1 product..GRAINS..(look up Food fortification and grains) Grains have a USE in developed nations for 1 GOOD reason..they can be STORED and last longer then other foods..also, LATE 1800’s we did something even MORE of a problem… Grains lasted Thru a winter..extended how long you could EAT…
We started giving it to the poor, and Taking the rest of the food to the Richer folks..
OUR diets are supposed to be MORE meat, veggies and fruits..and Grains as an Added side dish.. and NOW we are playing with the plants to the point, SOMEONE thinks thay can make GRAINS the perfect food..(so who gets all the meat??)
(is this the Christian way??)
Between the corps, politicians, and many others…WHERE are the Christians and THEIR values??
Did you know there are over 40 different groups that are considered Christian/catholic.. AND SOME dont think you need to have your FORE SKIN REMOVED..
The BIBLE is interesting as it has a few GREAT things in it..
Basic rules to live by..
A great philosophy..
Predictions of what CAN happen..if we let things go to far..
There are over 20 books in the bible, NOT 13..
The old testament is from the jewish religion…FROM THE TRIBAL ERA..how they were to get along..and stories of the PAST(brought forward) to show Cause and affect..
There are Books describing the times and events of Jesus’s era and HOW things happened and were Happening..Concordance.. and 1 is over 36 volumes and created/written by a Jewish person…
Do Believers get to see any of this??
The BIBLE is a Cross edited Piece of Garbage at this time..Word change, MEANING changes, Instances CHANGE..
Iv learned abit about UNDERSTANDING history and events of the TIME..KNOWING what was happening AROUND a situation, can explain MORE about what is happening then anything else..
I see Jesus as TRYING to fix his OWN religion after it was corrupted and manipulated while the Romans and OTHERS were STOMPING around the area..The Jewish leaders were trying to Placate and SUCK UP to the other groups..
RELIGION is supposed to bring people together, and to let people SHARE knowledge of what is happening AROUND the areas…WHO needs help and who is being stupid.. Its a tribal system to GET tribes to WORK TOGETHER..not much else, until someone created a GOD/FIGUREHEAD and anything WEIRD was said to be ‘GOD DID IT’..
I dont blame a GOD..I blame/worship/…/.. myself to Human nature and how many idiots I can Fit in the white house..
So, I’m not sure if I’m getting all of the points you’re making. But, the important ones to this particular conversation seem to be:
1. Christianity is the One True Religion(tm).
2. Bible translations are missing the real points.
3. Jesus is all about love.
And, if those points are a subset of your points, here are some questions I have:
1. What hard scientific evidence do you have for anything supernatural?
2. What hard scientific evidence do you have that Jesus is that thing?
And, I have one significant point about religion. Examine the word sectarian (as opposed to secular). Sectarianism divides people into sects, Us and Them. There is no Us and Them. There is only us, with a lower case u. We’re all the same.
We’re all just homo sapiens. There is only one extant race of humans.
Religion is not intended to increase oneness and love. Religion divides. That is its purpose, now and forever. That’s why it’s called sectarian.
But for this conversation, the question is what evidence you have that anything supernatural exists and that Jesus is that thing.
mY main POINT TENDS TO BE, Where is excommunication??
Where is the Church, pointing out the EVIL DOERS..??
Im not a person that Believes in Forgiveness AFTER THE FACT..
Where are all these people who SAY they are christian, and NOT ACT as christian..
FOR all the folks Yelling that we are a Christian STATE…its a MINORITY..a LOUD minority..
Republicans, Conservative religious..??? can you say…WHERE THE F??? did these people come from, that are trying to CHANGE this government?? Gives good meaning to Fascism..
It would be nice if religion became a force for good. I would maintain that it has never been so at any time in history, at least not by net effect. It was Catholics who ruled Europe until one king wanted a divorce and split from the church. And, when they ruled, they ruled with torture devices.
Excommunication is a purely Catholic concept as far as I’m aware.
For the evangelical megachurches of today, I think they are your loud minority. But, they’re no longer a minority. Did you know that almost 60% of Christians in the U.S. today believe that God created humans in their present form less than 10,000 years ago?
70.6% of U.S. identifies as Christian.
42% of U.S. believe humans specially created by God in present form
A bit of simple math ((42 / 70.6) * 100.0) = 59.5%
Even if we assume some small number of those are Jews or Muslims or others, we’re still left with way more than half of today’s Christians having some very strange beliefs, including that our species was created more recently than documented evidence of agriculture.
I don’t know if it’s right to say then that it’s a vocal minority anymore. I think this is the new mainstream Christianity. Yesterday’s moderate Christians are dying or their children are leaving religion. Those who are staying with religion are increasingly becoming the fucking nutjobs of yesterday, people who would have been too embarrassed to voice an opinion that the earth is less than 10,000 years old or (worse) is flat.
I know neither you nor I (nor anyone else even remotely sane) wants to believe that our country is this fucking brain dead. But, we are.
Anyway, this was supposed to be a thread about why I personally know there are no gods. I have not taken your arguments as any evidence that there are.
What did you think of my point about intelligent design versus the errors in the design of our bodies? Certainly, Christianity (and the whole Abrahamic religion) posit a god who created us in his own image.
Do you think God suffers from back pain?
God created humans in their present form less than 10,000 years ago?
70.6% of U.S. identifies as Christian.
42% of U.S. believe humans specially created by God in present form
A bit of simple math ((42 / 70.6) * 100.0) = 59.5%…………….
70% CLAIM to be christian..?? LOL..
42% think Mankind hasnt changed in 10000+ years??
Jews have been around for about 4000 years(as they say)
Christians only 2000 YEARS…AND Very Loosely for the first 200, and CLAIM all of the Jewish history and fantasies..TO BE CHRISTIAN..(weird) thay have very little History of THEIR OWN..
If you define God as all the principles of Chemistry, Physics, and Mathematics rolled into on integrated force, then I could accept this redefining, but I will not accept any rumors, hearsay, or fictional accounts of supernatural beings!
There is also the mathematical possibility that a complete inverted or opposite Universe exists completely oblivious to each other! This in no way implies that there is a personality/God/or creator!
One of the postulations is that the Universe(s) have always been in existence! There is a principle of Conservation of Energy/Mass and that the combined values there of cannot be destroyed, created, or misplace!
Religion is an exhibition of man’s defective DNA, requiring superstition, boogeymen, and ignoring evidence to the contrary!
Scientific logic requires disciplined thinking and methods! End of the case!
I understand what you mean about defining God as science/math. I’ve heard that before from you and from others, I think. What I don’t understand is the reason to call that a god. I’d be happier with an “all that groks is God” philosophy.
There’s another possibility that leaves our own universe as having always been here, despite the fact that it began 13.8 billion years ago. Time began 13.8 billion years ago along with our universe. Perhaps we need to redefine always.
The best we can tell from our current knowledge of physics is that the whole concept of “before the big bang” may not be valid. Before and after may truly have not existed without our universe.
That’s just one possibility. I’m not really arguing for that. Just stating it as a possibility.
I also think that the “nothing” philosophers like to use as the nothing before the universe may truly not exist. We’ve never seen such a nothing. The best nothing we know of is intergalactic space, which definitely contains a few atoms per whatever volume.
So, we might be able to imagine a nothing that is the fabric of spacetime itself. But a nothing that is not even that may truly exist only in our minds as a philosophical construct. We have no evidence that such a nothing even can exist.
Perhaps “before the big bang” or “in eternity outside of time” is a tiny piece of the fabric of spacetime. If we have even that much, there is no need of any god.
Quantum stuff would pop into existence in that tiny piece of spacetime and it would expand. And, here we are. It really might be as simple as that.
I can’t really say, of course. No one can right now.
But, if we just point a finger at some mythical god without asking where the fuck that god came from, we do ourselves the disservice of shutting down our brains.
That is key!
God turns off our brains, quite literally. Once you subscribe to a philosophy or religion that God did it, there is no further question. We can’t examine that hypothesis. We can’t learn any more about the subject. And, what we have asserted without evidence has taught us absolutely nothing.
God shuts down brains.
Other universes are a cool concept. I know of only one hypothesis that rose to the level of a true testable scientific hypothesis for how that could be. It made predictions about our universe.
When those predictions proved false, the hypothesis died, as good but false hypotheses do. And, the theoretical physicist who came up with the hypothesis had specifically requested that the tests be performed by experimental physicists and was among the first to admit his hypothesis had proven false.
And, that is how it’s done.
So, we await other multiverse hypotheses that can be turned into scientific hypotheses and can be tested. And, then we will await the results.
Of course, there may be many such hypotheses of which I’m unaware.
I am close to the Intelligent Designer God.
> So, we can look for flaws in the “design” of our universe
looking for flaws is subjective and cannot provide proof to base your arguments on.
I see it as self evident subjective proof that such a god exists. And I find utility in believing that, it makes me mentally stable and more productive and can be my moral guidance.
Other than that I mostly agree with your points.
Flaws in the universe are subjective, I agree. If you tell me what you think the purpose of the universe is, we can talk about whether the universe is well designed for that purpose. It is certainly not designed for life since most of the universe is hostile to life.
As for the flaws in ourselves, those are actually not subjective. We know what the various parts of our body do. And, we can look at how well those body parts perform their functions. If they are less than perfect, then they were not designed by an all-perfect designer.
After all, an all-perfect designer creates perfect designs. Otherwise, the term has no meaning.
Free will may give an argument regarding imperfections in our brains as being necessary to allow us to make choices. But, our physical design does not need to be broken for that.
What do you see as the self-evident proof?
And, how can subjective proof be self-evidence?
I don’t want to dissuade you from belief if it adds to your mental health. I personally fail to see how it could. But, I’m not inside your brain with you.
I’m curious though. Do you believe in a specific religion’s view of God? What is your view on scripture? Do you believe God is good? All good or just mostly good?
I believe the purpose of the universe is to wonder how bizarre works of art and science it is. To reach human’s limits by living to full capacity and be a part of that wonderland. Accept and embrace our flaws and despite all chances, thrive to survive. Flaws are part of the design but there are ways to counter them, life ends as mysteriously as it starts, and we only live once that makes it our precious, and every life is equal in that way. So maybe none of the violence hatred pain suffering matter as long as all will die.
I believe in free will, and thus we might be responsible by our choices and might have to abide by moral rules, but I think about unequal chances people are born into and how that affects our decisions so don’t want to take full responsibility for our actions. I believe in an afterlife, I merely hope for a peaceful ending. Yet I am still perplexed by the notion of punishment in religion.
I believe god is also kind and to be respected because it doesn’t reveal itself, spoil the mystery.
I can’t see this wonderland as a mere deterministic non sense with nothing to show for in the end, I think it’s more likely there is a higher purpose specifically designed for humans because we are special in this universe because we have life, free will, intelligence and exploration.
Did this god reveal to humans? I think it is likely, but I still see debatable problems with that and the scriptures. I still respect the leaders for their efforts and achievements.
I have speculations about technology will save us and achieve our utopia. I find it likely to bring back people from dead from DNA. Or it is likely we will all see a full bright light and open our eyes in another universe with a fresh memory. We can only speculate about this but I find it more likely that it can’t end as bizarre as it has started.
Thanks for the explanation. There’s a lot to unpack here. First and foremost, I do have to point out that you have unfortunately not provided a shred of actual evidence for any of this. I don’t mean that to be as insulting as it sounds. It’s just a simple observation.
So, in an observable universe with 1011 galaxies and 1021 stars and 1022 planets and quite possibly way more beyond the speed of light boundary to our observations, earth and humans are special and are the purpose for all of it.
I’m just curious why you think we’re so special.
Every time we thought that we were special and the universe was made for us with us at the very center with even the sun revolving around us, we have been disabused of such arrogance.
Why would we expect such arrogance to hold now?
But, why would a perfect designer create those flaws? Is the intelligent designer actively cruel? 80% of us will experience back pain. Why did God want that for us?
Neither the start nor the finish of a human life are mysterious at all.
I agree that the only life we get is more meaningful than it would be if we were to posit an afterlife rendering this a mere prelude.
But, you seem to posit that the very purpose of our life is the violence, hatred, pain, and suffering. What am I missing in your statement?
All social species have evolved moral rules. There’s nothing special about humans in this.
I thought you said this was our only life and that made it meaningful. Now you’re saying you believe in an afterlife. I don’t understand.
People don’t like to see evil humans get away without punishment. This may be part of why we invented God and religion.
But, that causes greater suffering, not less. Look at all the people with differing beliefs in God killing each other over those beliefs when God could easily clear that up and stop the bloodshed.
This is simply an argument from personal incredulity followed by arrogance over our position in the universe.
In space, the whole planet on which we find ourselves is just one microscopic speck. In time, our entire existence is around 0.002% of the duration of the universe.
How significant could we possibly be given numbers like that?
The scripture of the Abrahamic religion is demonstrably and provably false. The universe in which we find ourselves is nothing like that described in scripture.
Which leaders do you respect? The religious leaders who gave us additional reasons to kill each other as if our biology alone were not sufficient? Or, do you respect the scientific leaders who have shown us the vastness and wonder of the universe and demonstrated that there is no need of gods here?
Many people share this view. But, it’s purely faith based and not based on looking at the ways in which technology has historically solved one problem while creating a larger one.
Petroleum and natural gas was the solution to the need for whale oil. Now that threatens our survival as a species.
This is not scientifically possible. Even if we clone someone from the dead, they would not grow into the same person with the same memories.
There is no reason at all to think so.
There’s nothing bizarre about oblivion. We know what non-existence feels like. The experience you had for the first 13.8 billion years of the universe is no different than what we will experience when our brains shut down.
What do you see as bizarre?
Thanks for the detailed analysis. Your questions help me to better express my thoughts.
Do you have reason to believe there are other life forms as intelligent as humans that are experiencing universe the same way humans do. Don’t you think it’s bizarre that in all the universe there is a single earth and single advanced intelligence that can fully appreciate the nature. Don’t you think humans are the superior species that dominates all other species. It is not arrogance it’s just simple observation.
It is by design human is vulnerable, otherwise you can’t experience a sense of safety in your comfortable home or appreciate how fit you are. You wouldn’t seek for shelter, food or mating, you might as well be a rock or other non living thing. There is a challenge and humans are alone with their free will and intelligence to overcome it. It is a law that allows evolution to happen. Maybe trees choose not to experience pain and evolved into trees, and humans choose to experience it and became humans.
We observe and experiment phenomena because it is mysterious to us. You seem certain about consciousness, memory and what happens after the body is dead. Can you explain the essence of life, can you build a model of human thought. How can you claim something to be impossible without understanding it.
It is a mystery that there is a god and an afterlife. Humans have evolved higher moral rules to separate themselves from the cruelty of nature and to build society. They used the idea of god as a tool. Our emotions are necessary for survival, we seek for comfort, trust, love, peace and infinite life. To conceptualize these utopias are a respectable effort of evolution.
Time or space doesn’t decide the significance of something, humans conscience is significant to itself. This is the time and space that I can observe life. And there is nothing else like it.
We have to live in a society to survive. Law and politics are necessary tools. Authority is a need. War is inevitable to protect the authority. Religion provides a framework to build authority and a guide to live life. It has influenced people for centuries allowed them to survive in tough times. It is subject to change and falsifiable and just like science, it is essential. Leaders have presented a coherent lifestyle with their preach and have been successful.
You have reason to believe anything, if it helps your survival. You need to take care of yourself, and be happy. Imagining a better life and working towards it makes you productive and full of love and joy. You have no reason to tell a joke but if it’s going to get you out of a stressful situation, it’s not unsound to tell that.
We reason to make art, science law or hard labor, to stand out of the violence and cruelty of nature.
About the DNA, I can live with a fresh memory, if it’s going to be me again. Who knows maybe science will be able to manipulate memories and inject the memory of entire history into our brains, there is no limit to speculation.
Do you have reason to believe there are other life forms as intelligent as humans that are experiencing universe the same way humans do.
I sincerely hope that human intelligence is not the be all and end all of thought in the universe.
We have a particular brand of intelligence. There are other types of intelligence. Our brand of intelligence seems to be geared toward self-destruction and short-lived species.
Consider that horseshoe crabs, chambered nautilus, crocodilians, and sharks have been on this planet in a relatively unchanged state for hundreds of millions of years.
Just 300,000 years after the evolution of our species, we are on the brink of extinction at our own hands. We are a literal catastrophe in the history of this planet. Our evolution is the cause of the sixth great mass extinction on earth. How horrific our destruction is will depend on whether we actually are intelligent enough to solve the problems caused by our intelligence and the fact that we as a K-selected species are breeding like an R-selected species with no checks and balances.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-63657-6
From the link above:
We’ve been causing mass extinctions everywhere we’ve gone since leaving Africa.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction
We are stealing from our children to feed ourselves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Overshoot_Day
Are we really intelligent? I don’t know. We actually don’t have a good definition of intelligence.
Is our intelligence, whatever it may mean, a good thing? I don’t know. It doesn’t seem to give us a survival advantage. As you can see above, we are showing every sign of being a very short lived species.
If we die by climate change, the extinction will be the equal of the greatest mass extinction of multicellular life ever experienced on this planet. 95% of all complex species died in that event, which was also caused by a warming planet. We don’t stand a chance of surviving such an event. But, we’re doing less than nothing to prevent it.
https://earth.stanford.edu/news/what-caused-earths-biggest-mass-extinction#gs.su91za
I don’t know that this is the case. I see no reason to think it is.
Consider the possibility that our brand of intelligence is self-destructive. The likelihood of we who have only been a part of this universe for only 0.002% of the current age of the universe meeting up with another intelligence who might also only survive for a short time in the vastness of space may not be as high as science fiction portrays.
We have been producing radio waves for about 130 years. That means that the entire bubble of space in which another species could detect our presence is only 130 light years in radius. But, the observable universe is about 13.8 billion light years in radius.
I think we dominate the planet at our peril. I don’t think we’re superior. Our inability to maintain this planet’s ability to sustain ourselves means we’re inferior rather than superior.
We stupidly talk about terraforming other planets. This one came that way and we’re incapable of keeping it terraformed. How are we going to terraform another planet when we’re incapable of keeping this one in the state in which we found it?
No. We are not superior. We’re a plague, a blight, a literal catastrophe in the history of the planet.
So your God wants us to experience pain and suffering. Do you have any evidence to support this assertion you make? That we could not live and be happy if our backs and knees were not broken. That we could not be happy if we didn’t have a high risk of choking to death because of our crappy pharynges?
This is a very strange idea you have.
OK. I’m sorry that this is, of its nature condescending. I literally don’t know how to say this gently. Lamarckian evolution was disproved around 200 years ago.
Species don’t choose to evolve a certain way. This is known to be false. We do not select our features consciously. Nor do trees.
And then we learn. You’re ignoring a lot of what we have already learned. The gaps in our knowledge are not as big as you think they are.
Yes. Software cannot run without hardware.
We have absolutely proved that consciousness comes from the physical brain. Damage to the physical brain changes our consciousness. Check out the case of Phineas Gage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage
People cannot perform mental tasks while in an fMRI without lighting up the image of the parts of our physical brains performing those tasks.
Further, we are learning a lot about things like NDEs and dissociative states.
Regarding NDEs …
https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/aware-results-finally-published-no-evidence-of-nde/
Regarding dissociative events…
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02505-z
Regarding consciousness …
https://www.livescience.com/what-is-consciousness.html
Yes. We know more about consciousness and the fact that it relies on a functioning brain than you think we do.
The essence of life is reproduction. As noted above, we’re learning a tremendous amount about human thought. There’s a really good book you might enjoy if you’re up for a full length book on the subject.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2652751-kluge
You assume we understand less than we do. We actually do know that mind is what the brain does. We know a lot and are learning more every day.
There is not. You call it a mystery because you can provide zero evidence of either. Show me your evidence. Calling it a mystery just means it’s something you want to believe, not something for which you have evidence.
Human morals are more complex. They are not necessarily higher or better. In fact, our ability to overcome good morals through bad ideologies is what gives us our particularly horrifying cruelty. All social species have morals. Rats have morals.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/empathic-rats-spring-each-other-from-jail
In contrast, human beings are the only species on the planet ever to use the concepts of engineering to create devices for the sole purpose of causing maximal pain and suffering.
Are our morals really higher than those of rats? Try reading this list of torture devices we’ve designed and implemented.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_methods_of_torture
I have no idea what this means.
Please provide evidence that there is nothing else like it.
Not all species do. Humans do. Rats do. Most primates do. Many animals are not social and need no such society.
And yet, we have often throughout history created horrific laws. The Spanish Inquisition was the result of laws and politics. So was the Holocaust. So were Stalin’s purges.
Yikes! I get it. You are a fascist. You are highly authoritarian and a warmonger. I am very surprised you express these horrifying thoughts while claiming we have higher morals than other species.
It has allowed humans to slaughter each other en masse as well.
Crusades, Inquisitions, Jihads, the doctrine of Manifest Destiny and associated genocides of indigenous peoples, the justification of the slave trade, pogroms, clinic bombings, doctor shootings, 9/11, and the recent coup attempt on the capital of the U.S. are all results of religion.
May I ask, what religion are you? What would it take to falsify your religion?
Essential for what exactly?
I get it. You’re an authoritarian and a fascist. You don’t have to tell me 3 times.
This is demonstrably false. Beliefs such as those people over there eat babies and must be exterminated may indeed give your own tribe some lebensraum and greater survival ability. It doesn’t mean those other people actually eat babies.
False beliefs are false whether they improve your survival or not.
View at Medium.com
It can also just be fun. It can be a bonding experience with friends. It need not be a way out of a stressful situation.
It can also be cruel and targeted toward belittling specific people and thus be something evil. There are lots of racist jokes.
Most of the cruelty and violence is of our own making. We are the meanest species ever to walk the planet. And, it will be our downfall, as noted above.
In questions of nature vs nurture, it is almost always both. A genetically identical person would not be you any more than a pair of identical twins are one person.
This is ludicrous.
Have you honestly never met identical twins?
Let’s first work on improving our 10% odds of surviving the next 40 years.
If the universe comes to an end tomorrow, humans would be the only thing that had the most awareness and “fun” out of it in 4 billion years. Then I would claim that the purpose of the universe, was for humans to be aware of it and have fun. Because that is significant for me, learning and entertainment. Our intelligence has proved to be most beneficial through millions of years of selective process. I see no reason to drop it, it helps me to have fun as much as it may cause pain.
We don’t understand the cruelty of nature, yet we have ability to understand it. We have the ability to avoid pain, and cure it. The most important thing we can’t cure is death, because we don’t understand it, I think that’s a serious lack of knowledge. Observations tell us everything is in revolution and suitable for life to occur, orbiting atoms, sun, the seasons, day and night cycle, sleep and awake, the vast subjects that is ready to be understood gives me the desire to relive this experience again. Maybe reincarnation will occur. Software can’t build software, yet conscious can build software so there is a difference. I am not sure if identical twins have exactly the same DNA it’s an interesting thing to think about.
Proving something false doesn’t mean it can’t be proven back to be true. Scientific facts are falsifiable and subject to change. A proof is only useful and can be used in arguments as long as it benefits us. Scientific facts are said to be proof or evidence because they correlate with our observations and we believe that is objective truth. We can believe imaginary things if they correlate with universal peace in the world. Your reasoning to believe eating babies leads to moral corruption, makes eating babies subjectively false. We have instincts for violence, greed, jealousy or love, peace, satisfaction, so we reason we have to channel all those instincts to allow for peace, anything to believe that works is morally sound or proven to be true.
It is essential that we live our life to the best of our ability have fun and learn, and make the best choices. Survival was necessary to live have fun and learn, awareness is subjective yet it helps us to survive.
Overpopulation industrialization, capitalization as much as possible shows the superiority of human to other species. We might not have to do that as much, we might have to believe we are not that superior and calm down, but we can believe in that and change our course of actions. You sound pessimistic and critical of the efforts to live in peace as a society, What is your goal in life, do you have a suggestion or a considerable effort that you believe in to achieve that. A healthy sense of fear is useful to prevent violence.
I believe the best authority is an imaginary god, not the leader of the religion which differentiates main religions from fascism. A fear of a superior, distinct from human is valid and reasonable. Imaginary traits such as all knowledge, prevents hacks around the system. It is directed towards human conscience, influential and effective. And the history of religion provides an essential foundation to build upon. Religion is a clever idea, and main religions has been the most successful attempt to be observed to work reliable for centuries, so it might be useful for further efforts.
People have used religion for wrong reasons, It doesn’t mean religion is inherently wrong. Technology caused nuclear bombs on innocent people, doesn’t mean technology is wrong. We need technology, law, politics, art, hard labor no matter how much harm they may bring, we can hope it will lessen our pain in the long run.
You can sincerely hope or even say that you “know” that it’s a design and we are significant. Your evidence of not finding any gods to know there is no god, applies to finding that there is no second earth, is a subjective proof.
How do you observe the change in our consciousness? I can randomly get bored and listen to different music with the same conscious. If you understand the consciousness what prevents you from building an artificial conscious from physical elements. Or manipulate conscious by manipulating the physical brain. Sure we have antidepressants and tranquilizers but can you make anyone believe in god. That’s certainly under scientists radar, yet I guess we don’t understand it enough yet.
If the essence of life is reproduction, why do some lives isn’t interested in mating. Do you have reason to believe LGBT community is insignificant and to be discarded as living. I would say essence of life is feeding or evacuation. or thinking or the neural system. Maybe the question is useless, I would ask can you artificially produce life so that you can explain life. Can you make machines think. Can you generate random numbers.
We are learning more everyday thanks to our ancestors, all humanity, and the self evident existential fact that everything is, who have shown their efforts to achieve where we are today.
13.8 billion years. And, what’s your evidence of this?
Fuck! What’s your evidence that this is true even here on earth? Other animals have consciousness. And, perhaps they spend their time a lot better than we do if our goal is to maximize “fun”.
Way too much of humanity is starving to say that we’re doing a reasonable job of maximizing fun!
You are an extremely arrogant individual.
And, of course, you are all that matters in the universe! Who do you think you are? Zaphod Beeblebrox?
And, again. You are all that matters in the universe.
I hate to say it. But, I’m really starting to detest you.
Also, our species not been alive for millions of years. We’ve only been on earth for a maximum of 300,000 years. And, unlike species that have survived for hundreds of millions of years, we are already showing signs of killing ourselves off because we’re too fucking stupid to pay attention to the severe warning signs that we’re already experiencing that point to our own peril.
What do you mean by this?
Cruelty requires a consciousness behind it. Nature is not conscious. Nature cannot be kind or cruel. It has no intent.
You lack the ability to recognize that no such thing exists. So, ….
Do we? Please do help me with that. Because my back and knee pains that are indicative of our terrible design are starting to impact my life.
What do you think we don’t understand about death? This is a silly statement.
We understand death perfectly well. In fact, we understand it better than we understand life.
This is provably false. If the universe were designed to be suitable for life, why is the universe so actively hostile to life. If you were randomly teleported to anyplace in the universe, the overwhelming odds are that you’d die sucking vacuum in about 30 seconds.
But, you say, surely earth is suited to life, our own little blue-green oasis? Well, not exactly. More than 99% of all species that have ever lived are extinct.
So, even our little oasis is pretty damned hostile to life.
There is literally zero reason to think so and a ton of evidence to say otherwise.
You’re totally missing my point. Software and consciousness CAN NOT EXIST without hardware on which to run. In the case of consciousness, that hardware is a brain.
We do have proof that consciousness requires a brain. You just choose to actively deny the evidence.
Good. Give that some thought.
That is exactly what proving something false means.
Scientific truths are not proven and are subject to change. But, there is an enormously high degree of confidence in that which we call a scientific theory.
What you are missing though is that the scientific falsehoods, the things that are proven false are exactly that … PROVEN FALSE.
In science, we gain confidence as the predictions made by a hypothesis match with observational tests of those predictions. Over time, we gain confidence in the hypothesis and call it a theory.
But, when the prediction is false, the hypothesis is false. It is proven false. It cannot later be proven true. It can only be replaced by a better hypothesis.
Science does not work on proofs. You’re thinking of mathematics. Might I suggest that you go back and get a refund on your high school science education? Mine sucked too in that regard. I never learned what science actually was in school either. I only learned what it had taught us, not how it works.
I learned that later.
You still have not learned what science actually is and how it works. You’ve gotten sound bites from religious leaders with a deliberate agenda of getting you to believe nonsense. But, you have not really learned what science is or how the scientific method works.
False beliefs do not inform good actions.
What the actual fuck are you talking about??!!? Please don’t put ridiculous stupid words together and then blame me for them!
I said no such thing
What evidence do you have that any of these things are instinctual at all?
What are you doing to achieve peace? You support religion which is demonstrably and provably opposed to peace.
Crusades, inquisitions, jihads, Manifest Destiny (and its genocides), slavery, pogroms, 9/11, clinic bombings, doctor shootings, Christian and Islamic terrorism, religious wars, etc.
This is what religion brings. This is what you support!
But, we threaten our own survival because of our stupidity and failure to recognize the dangers of our own brand of what we pretend is intelligence.
I would argue the opposite. Our short lived species is proving to be inferior to other species.
First, you’d need some fucking humility and ability to recognize the value of the other sentiences on this planet and the need for a functioning biosphere. Right now, you think we exist by magic and don’t need those things.
I am pessimistic about our ability to change our nature and become peaceful. I am not critical of the efforts to do so.
Religion will not get us there. Religion has proven itself to be a force of death and destruction.
Far from trying to solve our problems, religion gives people a reason to actively vote for Armageddon and to say amazingly stupid shit like this on the floor of the U.S. House of Representatives. This is someone who should be designing policies that allow us to live in peace with nature. Instead, he is using God to argue for increasing the carbon emissions that threaten most complex life on the planet including us.
This is what religion does!
Rep. John Shimkus: God decides when the “earth will end
This is your guy, not mine.
None of your damn business, actually! I don’t feel close enough to you to get that personal.
Fear causes people to vote Repugnican. Fear causes people to stockpile weapons. Fear causes distrust and hatred.
Fear is a force for violence, not peace!
Why??!!? What help could an imaginary god possibly be?
“Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.” ― Robert Heinlein
Quite the reverse, in actual fact!
Look around. Most of the evil shitheads in the world have God on their side. It’s amazing how the gods we dream up always want the same evil shit that some evil dictator wants.
Gott Mitt Uns!
That depends on your goal. Religion is fantastic for making people go to war!
Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition!
No. It just means that the net effect has been horrifically evil.
Actually, it does mean that using technology for war is wrong.
Why do we need these things? Other species have lived for way longer without any of them.
The laws of physics do not contain exceptions for when gods intervene.
We do have active disproofs of the gods that take actions in this universe. Any god incapable of taking action is completely powerless. So, by what definition would it be a god?
I don’t understand your question.
In theory, nothing. In practice, people manipulate consciousness all the time. See televangelists, cult leaders, and other confidence scam artists.
Clearly people do that all the time! Usually, it starts with indoctrination from a very young age. But, it can also be by looking for the weak and vulnerable and dragging them into a cult.
As for whether I can do it, I’m trying to do exactly the opposite. I’m trying to disabuse people of false notions.
What are you talking about? Why on earth would scientists want to create false beliefs in people’s mind? Science may not be perfect. Scientists certainly are not perfect. But, the goal is to learn the truths of our universe. Why use that to create falsehoods in people?
Don’t we have enough of that from religious leaders?
You asked me to define life. The truth is that we actually don’t have a good definition. The best I’ve heard is that life replicates.
I’m childfree by choice. There are lots of good reasons not to create more human life. Too many humans is the problem on this planet, not the solution.
Please stop putting words in my mouth. I absolutely did not say anything that could remotely lead to that conclusion. And, I’m childfree myself and a strong LBGTQ+ ally.
You’ve certainly proven yourself full of shit!
You actively advocate false beliefs.
This cannot be the defining characteristic of life since the vast majority of life on the planet and even more than half the biomass is still unicellular life.
We actually don’t have a good definition of life. I gave the simplest possible. But, it’s inadequate and probably wouldn’t help us to recognize extraterrestrial life.
But, why do I have to be able to artificially create life to explain it? That seems like a rather silly requirement.
I cannot.
No. I can’t. Not truly random. I could probably find an algorithm that would give the appearance of randomness.
Humorously, humans when asked to come up with random numbers from their brains do a horrible job of it. It’s easy to spot the difference because truly random numbers will have clumps where humans will attempt to have the numbers spread out too evenly.
And yet, you want to go back to known false beliefs and even to belief in gods you admit are made up by humans.
Very strange.
I want to point out the flaw in that analogy, there is a difference between software and consciousness. I agree, we haven’t observed consciousness without a brain.
Things we have never observed are proven false. But we don’t have total awareness of the infinite conditions. We have possibility to be aware of new conditions and observe things we have never observed.
Ok, I change my view to this:
Every consciousness has a nervous system to feel pleasure, and pain, an awareness to make reason to a certain depth, and a free will to control their body. They inherently give significance to avoid pain and maximize pleasure, and use their reasoning to act on free will.
We develop complex behavior through reasoning which we call emotions. We observe patterns in our behavior which we call violence, love, greed, peace, fear.
Fear is just a reasonable pattern of behavior to avoid pain. Just like love is to maximize pleasure. Or violence to maybe both.
We develop complex emotions which we call goals. Such as be famous, get revenge, get a job, go to heaven.
We act on free will to control our environment including each other which we call influence.
We influence others to cooperate under the same set of goals, that allows us to use collective reasoning.
We develop environmental conditions through collective reasoning which we call technology, science, law, history.
technology, science, history are universal, that is conditioned to be collectively reasoned by everyone.
Except law.
I hypothesize an idea of a single law will become universal as well.
I predict if law was to become universal, it would be a law that has the most influence on everyone.
I have observed the most influential laws are based on an idea of a single god.
If law was to become universal idea of a single god will become universal thus accepted by everyone.
I argue a universal law is good, thus everyone should gain confidence in a single god.
That’s not all I said. I said that we have observed that damage to the brain changes consciousness. We have actively observed that consciousness is purely a product of the brain, nothing else.
That is also not what I said. Predictions of a scientific hypothesis that do not match with the observations of reality prove the scientific hypothesis false.
Falsification is way more active than you make it sound.
Science doesn’t give positive proof that a theory is true. But, it absolutely does give positive proof when a hypothesis is false.
This is semantically null. We have no idea if there are infinite conditions. New conditions that arise tend to be based on more precise measurements of the cosmos. This is how we discovered the existence of dark matter and dark energy.
But, and this is very important, these new discoveries did not negate our existing theories in any way. General Relativity still holds. Quantum Mechanics still holds.
This may be true for conscious life as we know it. We do not know what life as we don’t know it might be like. It could be more like this, for all we know.
Reasoning and emotions are actually quite radically different.
I don’t agree with any of these statements.
I don’t believe this either.
The neuroscience jury is still out on the existence of free will.
This is also not necessarily true. Many people, such as preachers or politicians and con artists, may influence others to further their own goals at the expense of those whom they influence. It’s much more complex than you describe.
Environmental conditions? I would use that to describe things like climate change, desertification, habitat destruction, mass extinction, etc.
I’m not sure what you mean when you say environmental conditions.
No. It really isn’t. Most people don’t even know what science actually is or how it works. You yourself have repeatedly demonstrated that you persionally have no idea.
Why wouldn’t law be based on the philosophical field of ethics?
I think laws based on ethics are far better than laws based on reading what my early iron-age sheepherd ancestors thought sounded like a good idea.
They seem seriously into people getting stoned to death … and not in a good way!
We’ve already got one!
c = 299,792,458 meters per second.
Other than something like that, I have no idea what you’re talking about. One of the few cool things about human ethics and laws is that in general, they can be improved over time.
Religion is always opposed to this process and continues to oppose this process today in the U.S. as the religious wrong continue to fight against laws that would reduce racism, misogyny, and bigotry against LBGTQ+ people, and many other progressive ideas.
As noted above, religion even actively opposes taking the action necessary to allow our own survival. But, at least it’s very much pro-gun!
That wouldn’t be a measure of the law’s goodness, only its influence. The law against apostasy is very influential in Iran and Saudi Arabia.
Influential but absolutely horrible! You keep ignoring the demonstrable fact that theocracies are horrifically bad for human rights and liberties.
May I ask what country you live in? Is it Saudi Arabia or Iran?
Those who did not accept it would be killed! Is that your measure of acceptance?
I argue that such laws as you propose are demonstrably and provably terrible.
I know you like to just spout bullshit without backing up a single fucking thing you say. But, please do provide a link to some uber-religiose utopian theocratic society.
Good fucking luck!
Please do try to take this seriously. I’m really against censorship and would hate to ban you. But, you’re being very disingenuous here. You’re making wild claims with no basis for them and providing nothing to say why anyone should believe you.
It’s the same sort of trolling you’re doing on the reddit atheism sub.
In fact, while you’re at it, please explain your penchant for trying to sell atheists on the ridiculous idea that theocracy would be good.
As far as I can tell, theocracies kill atheists. So, this is kind of a difficult sales pitch you’re making. And, you’re doing an absolutely terrible job of it.
We feed an artificial intelligence ethics, and abide by the predictions.
Embed chips on brains to enforce. No government, no police, no god.
I predict it will be just as horrible as religion. history is horrible.
How do you lift your spirits up? How do you keep your wits about you.
How is your ethics survive in this horrible life. You have reason to exist thanks to your religious family’s choices. Science can’t exist if you don’t have a home.
“That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.” — Christopher Hitchens
Since you refuse to back up a single thing you say, literally everything you’ve said thus far can be thrown out via Hitchens’s Razor. You’re really not very good at this whole trolling thing. You should work on that … somewhere else!
Why on earth would we do that?! I certainly never suggested such a thing! That sounds awful.
Why on earth would we do that?! I certainly never suggested such a thing! That sounds awful.
Probably not as horrible for me as religion. Theocracies always kill atheists violently in public squares to make an example of them.
Unless they kill them in torture dungeons like the Spanish Inquisition.
No. It would be horrible. But, not as horrible as a theocracy.
Please cite exactly when we set up an AI dictator with chips in people’s brains. I think it’s a terrible idea. But, we do not have any history on such a thing.
My life’s actually pretty awesome. I don’t understand the question.
I’ve been married 33 years and counting to a wonderful woman. I’ve traveled to every continent on earth at least twice, most way more than that. I’ve seen amazing wildlife.
That’s a truly hilarious question coming from you. Why?
Because, you’ve come to a battle of wits. But, you didn’t come armed.
Why would I have any trouble keeping my wits about me?
As I said, my life is not horrible. So, this is just another stupid question based on absofuckinglutely nothing.
Huh??!!? What the fuck are you talking about? My mom was agnostic.
What about me gave you the idea that I’m homeless? (Not that there’s anything wrong with being homeless. I mean, it’s not like being an arrogant asshole internet troll.)
Somewhere on this planet, there is a gnat who is solving difficult calculus problems in /her head and performing the engineering to build the technology revolution to benefit all gnatkind.
She is not regretting for a second having switched brains with you.
Please take your 3 neurons and leave. I really hate banning people. But, you are proving yourself to be among the most moronic internet trolls I’ve encountered.
Just think about what you’re doing. You’re going around here and on reddit trying to sell atheists on why they should actively want a government that will kill them violently and publicly for our non-belief.
Your god has sent you on a fool’s errand and is laughing at you for having accepted it.
I am not advocating the specific laws that lead to violence. God was an hypothesis that predicted people to have a better life and homes. And since it still provides people homes it hasn’t been proved wrong. Provide a better hypothesis that predicts for everyone to achieve that awesome life, or at least respect those who had been lived in tough times. Not as lucky as you are to have a safe government. You are ridiculing homeless people that had to worry about being killed in their sleep.
Banning people that don’t agree with you is violence.
FIRST AND FOREMOST: I HAVE REPEATEDLY ASKED THAT YOU ACTUALLY BACK UP THE SHIT YOU SAY. YOU HAVE FLATLY REFUSED BOTH HERE AND ON REDDIT!
Bullshit!! A theocracy means violence, always every time! I have repeatedly asked you for an example where this has not been the case. You have flatly refused.
If you cannot back up what you say, it’s probably because you’re spouting bullshit!
Therefore, yes, you are advocating violence. You are advocating death penalty for blasphemy and apostasy and homosexuality.
Again, more bullshit assertions. You’re a common troll. And, you’re not very good at it. Your statements are obviously false.
Again, back up your bullshit or stop saying it.
You mean better than the absolutely nothing but empty assertions you have provided?
You mean a safe secular government (for as long as the Republicans don’t take over)? Yes. That is what the founders of the United States intended when they quite deliberately created a secular country with freedom of religion and no mention of any gods in our constitution.
What the fuck are you talking about you stupid asshat??!!?
When did I say anything bad about homeless people?
I won’t be banning you for disagreeing with me. I would never do that.
I would be banning you for not debating in good faith!!!
You have done nothing here but make bold assertions that are demonstrably and provably false while advocating a government system that would publicly execute me for non-belief as all theocracies have ever done.
If you want to stay in this site, there better be at least one substantiated fact with link in your next reply.
Otherwise, you will be banned, not for disagreeing with me but for trolling.
Oh, and by the way, as someone who has been literally punched in the head and knocked unconscious by good ol’ Christian love, I can assure you that banning you from speaking on my private blog is not an act of violence.
We have different definitions for “Violence”. To me, it’s inevitable and everywhere, how can we coexist with this fact is the big question. I assume you have never heard of invading other countries in the name of “peace”, whether it is based on “god” or not. I will be more specific, there are a billion Christians in this world they have been trusted by billions of people, Governments find them sympathetic and respect their religion, probably that’s why it is not being banned or shamed but encouraged by billions of other people as well. They also contribute to society, and not just terrorizing the rest. Death penalty on blasphemy, is a weakness in law enforcement. The problem of Homosexuality, is a weakness of flexibility in laws.
I will ask you one specific question, and I won’t be linking you any trusted source, since I trust your judgment and knowledge of research on this topic, as someone making quite bold claims. Let’s take the last prophecy claim on main religions. One odd guy, in his 40’s, with no prior education or doesn’t even know how to read a book, starts to talk about angels, gods, prophecy, and starts telling people how to live their lives. In a word that ha\
s effect on people. Some people take him seriously and become his followers, some people frown upon and start a war against him. In his rest of 23 year life, as he has been observed intensively, lives quite a dignified, respected, humble life. And brings upon a culture that is carried over for centuries and still active in 2021. What do you think of this guy? Is he a mad man? Then it’s quite a success for some mad guy to achieve. Or very clever malicious man? Then what was his exact goal, clearly he wasn’t concerned about his life here, but something big, what could he want, and what is malicious about this? Or just a man with utter luck? I dont have anything clever to say about this, so I would probably choose this one 🙂
First, please accept my apology for missing the email on this somewhere along the way. So, I’m sorry that I didn’t respond for so long.
It scares me rather a lot that you put scare quotes around and capitalized violence. Please do provide me with your definition. Please also tell me what exceptions you see that cause you to need to put the scare quotes there.
Our species is indeed a violent one. We got to be what we are and where we are by being the meanest sons of bitches on the planet. (No offense to dogs intended.)
But, that doesn’t make violence good. And, it doesn’t mean that we don’t have known things such as religion that we know increases both violence and the fervor with which we commit it.
So, wouldn’t removing even one cause of violence be a good thing? Even if it didn’t remove all violence?
I fail to see the relevance of this. It is also not true. There are a billion Catholics alone. There are 2.6 billion Christians on the planet today.
So what? Why does government approval of a religion make it good? What makes you think that people specifically trust Christians? Do you think people trust them because they are Christian or despite that they are Christian?
Do they contribute more per capita to society than any other group? And what is the relevance of this?
Which way? Do you think there should be death penalty for blasphemy or should not be death penalty for blasphemy?
Again, which way? Do you support same sex marriage or oppose it? Would you stone homosexuals to death for being gay or grant them full rights as human beings?
You’re leaving me to guess which one you mean by this? Are you talking about L. Ron Hubbard? Are you talking about Joseph Smith? Are you talking about David Koresh? Are you talking about Jim Jones?
Are you talking about Mohomed? Are you talking about Jesus? Are you talking about Moses? Are you talking about Siddhartha Gautama? Are you talking about the Dalai Lama?
How can I tell from this what you’re calling a main religion and which prophecy you’re calling the last?
Self-proclaimed prophets are a dime a dozen.
OK. So, not Jesus. Maybe Joseph Smith. Probably not L. Ron Hubbard.
What does this say about whoever this might be?
So, not Mohamed who married a 7 year old child and had sex with her while she was still a 9 year old child.
So, not someone as recent as L. Ron Hubbard, David Koresh, or Jim Jones.
I don’t know which guy you mean. You’ve ruled out everyone I thought it could be.
I have no idea who you mean.
Lots of mad men were successful. So what?
I’m still not sure who you mean, honestly. I suspect I can guess. But, I’m not really positive.
May I ask what religion you are and what prophet you mean so that I know what apologetics game you’re playing and how better to respond?
I would point out though that truth doesn’t require prophets. It is simply demonstrably true. If something requires a prophet’s hallucinations and faith to believe it, it’s a good bet it’s false.
But, please do tell me who and what you’re talking about so I can better understand.
P.S. I’m also a little surprised that at no point have you made any argument that any religion is actually true or that any gods exist. So, I’m somewhat failing to understand your point here.
The left recurrent laryngeal nerve because of its longer course (through the thorax)makes it more prone to disease/ injury in humans resulting in paralysis of the left vocal cord happening more often than the right
That’s interesting. I had no idea they were different lengths.
I’m an Antithist, too.
To even consider the any opinions, (that what gods are) on the issue, they would need to bring actual scientific evidence to make get me to look at it. Given this, they would have to cunjure this being, (all knowing, all seeing) to show himself to everyone at one time. If he or they are everywhere, there shouldn’t be any issues with showing him, her or itself.
So without any evidence, and there aren’t any, I conclude the notion that gods do not exist.
That’s certainly a reasonable conclusion. Physical scientific evidence would count for more to me personally than eyewitness testimony. But, I guess if everyone in the world saw something, it would be pretty hard to class it as mass hysteria/delusion or similar.