Comments on: The Most Important Number on Earth http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/the-most-important-number-on-earth/ The blog of a bipolar misanthrope Sat, 02 Jan 2010 16:40:04 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Misanthropic Scott http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/the-most-important-number-on-earth/#comment-2438 Misanthropic Scott Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:02:20 +0000 http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/?p=469#comment-2438 Mr. Gilly, Thanks for some more great information about the ways in which humans are totally trashing the biosphere upon which we depend for our very lives. Mr. Gilly,

Thanks for some more great information about the ways in which humans are totally trashing the biosphere upon which we depend for our very lives.

]]> By: Mr Gilly http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/the-most-important-number-on-earth/#comment-2437 Mr Gilly Tue, 14 Apr 2009 04:00:40 +0000 http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/?p=469#comment-2437 While I remember it, there are also other contaminants like Selenium. I am not aware of what levels of this element occur in various coal beds, but in Central Alberta it does occur in the waste gases from oil wells. For years these gases were "flared off" at the well heads until some serious problems began occurring. The oil companies stated that they were in no way responsible for the rising rates of bovine miscarriages, but when this also started to happen in the resident local Hmo Sapien population, some University of Alberta researchers started to investigate in depth. They found that the Selenium in these flares was being washed out of the atmosphere into the soil, then it was taken up into the cows when they ate the grass which was enriched with Selenium from the soil. http://heldref-publications.metapress.com/index/B7717433146W22NV.pdf Association Between Exposure to Emissions From the Oil and Gas ... a compressor station or gas plant with a large flare stack or incinerator stack. ..... 55% were exposed to a gas or oil well site during this period. Table 1. ...... associated with selenium or vitamin E deficiency. The re- .... Janowski TM, Chmielowiec J. Poisoning of cattle with sulphur from ... http://heldref-publications.metapress.com/index/B7717433146W22NV.pdf - Similar pages - by CL Waldner - 2009 - Cited by 2 The end result of this study and others is that now the oil/gas companies are not allowed in those fields to release such toxics into the atmosphere. Another element you would never expect to find in natural gases is Vanadium. Vanadium is a valuable micro alloying element used in steel making. It became into short supply during the Viet Nam War as the materials yeild strength enhancer and grain refining agent used in steel helicopter rotor blades. That put a pinch on the more mundane use of VO2} in higher yield strength steel reinforcing bars. While I remember it, there are also other contaminants like Selenium. I am not aware of what levels of this element occur in various coal beds, but in Central Alberta it does occur in the waste gases from oil wells. For years these gases were “flared off” at the well heads until some serious problems began occurring. The oil companies stated that they were in no way responsible for the rising rates of bovine miscarriages, but when this also started to happen in the resident local Hmo Sapien population, some University of Alberta researchers started to investigate in depth.
They found that the Selenium in these flares was being washed out of the atmosphere into the soil, then it was taken up into the cows when they ate the grass which was enriched with Selenium from the soil.

http://heldref-publications.metapress.com/index/B7717433146W22NV.pdf
Association Between Exposure to Emissions From the Oil and Gas …
a compressor station or gas plant with a large flare stack or incinerator stack. ….. 55% were exposed to a gas or oil well site during this period. Table 1. …… associated with selenium or vitamin E deficiency. The re- …. Janowski TM, Chmielowiec J. Poisoning of cattle with sulphur from …
http://heldref-publications.metapress.com/index/B7717433146W22NV.pdf – Similar pages -
by CL Waldner – 2009 – Cited by 2

The end result of this study and others is that now the oil/gas companies are not allowed in those fields to release such toxics into the atmosphere.

Another element you would never expect to find in natural gases is Vanadium. Vanadium is a valuable micro alloying element used in steel making. It became into short supply during the Viet Nam War as the materials yeild strength enhancer and grain refining agent used in steel helicopter rotor blades. That put a pinch on the more mundane use of VO2} in higher yield strength steel reinforcing bars.

]]> By: Misanthropic Scott http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/the-most-important-number-on-earth/#comment-2364 Misanthropic Scott Sat, 28 Feb 2009 15:01:00 +0000 http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/?p=469#comment-2364 bobbo, Their brains were baked in coal ovens. bobbo,

Their brains were baked in coal ovens.

]]> By: bobbo http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/the-most-important-number-on-earth/#comment-2363 bobbo Sat, 28 Feb 2009 03:53:46 +0000 http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/?p=469#comment-2363 Well, the three of us agree. Whats wrong with the rest of the world? Well, the three of us agree. Whats wrong with the rest of the world?

]]> By: Misanthropic Scott http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/the-most-important-number-on-earth/#comment-2360 Misanthropic Scott Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:54:19 +0000 http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/?p=469#comment-2360 Mr. Gilly, Excellent points!! I was not aware of many of those dangers. However, given the near-term threat to the survival of our species and many others from global warming, I am not prepared to call CO2 the least of the worries regarding coal. Mr. Gilly,

Excellent points!! I was not aware of many of those dangers. However, given the near-term threat to the survival of our species and many others from global warming, I am not prepared to call CO2 the least of the worries regarding coal.

]]> By: Mr Gilly http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/the-most-important-number-on-earth/#comment-2359 Mr Gilly Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:16:16 +0000 http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/?p=469#comment-2359 Bobbo, the CO2} is the least of the worries with burning coal and coke. It has other residuals that are very harmful, to mention 2, Mercury and Arsenic. When we NDT go into the firebox[flues] of one of those huge power plant steam boilers during a major outage inspection project, we have to wear a special monitoring device that collects samples of the air we breathe through our dust masks. This is so that the company and the contractor know what our exposure has been! I was never on that crew, so I don't know if there were follow up blood tests. The design of these coal and oil/gas fired steam boiler electric generation plants use much higher steam pressures than do the nuclear plants, where the design safety factors are much higher. All of these generation plants must periodically go through very rigorous inspections for both safety and power generation reliability reasons. We tend to forget how much of our society has critical dependency on the primary source of electricity, from the common street lights to the major hospital trauma operating theatres with heart, lung, or dialysis machines, etc! Bobbo, the CO2} is the least of the worries with burning coal and coke. It has other residuals that are very harmful, to mention 2, Mercury and Arsenic. When we NDT go into the firebox[flues] of one of those huge power plant steam boilers during a major outage inspection project, we have to wear a special monitoring device that collects samples of the air we breathe through our dust masks. This is so that the company and the contractor know what our exposure has been! I was never on that crew, so I don’t know if there were follow up blood tests.
The design of these coal and oil/gas fired steam boiler electric generation plants use much higher steam pressures than do the nuclear plants, where the design safety factors are much higher. All of these generation plants must periodically go through very rigorous inspections for both safety and power generation reliability reasons. We tend to forget how much of our society has critical dependency on the primary source of electricity, from the common street lights to the major hospital trauma operating theatres with heart, lung, or dialysis machines, etc!

]]> By: Misanthropic Scott http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/the-most-important-number-on-earth/#comment-2358 Misanthropic Scott Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:31:33 +0000 http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/?p=469#comment-2358 bobbo, You won't get any disagreement from me on any of that post. Coal is the worst of all fuels. It produces (from memory, so I may be off a bit) 4 times as much CO2 as gas and twice as much as oil for the same energy. Mining of coal is horrific. Even out west where they still dig holes, it is terrible for the environment to mine coal. Here in the east, they are literally leveling large swaths of the Appalachian Mountains and turning them into a Mars-scape. Clean Coal??!!? Hah! Carbon sequestration by burying the CO2 underground? It might work. How will we know? We probably need to do this for existing plants. But, building new ones is unconscionable. And, I love trees too. Let's plant some native species and reforest some large swaths of suburbia. Suburbia is proving to be a failed concept anyway. It is the very definition of unsustainable. Suburbia will be the new slums. <a href="http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/2008/03/05/slumburbs/" rel="nofollow">Slumburbs</a> bobbo,

You won’t get any disagreement from me on any of that post. Coal is the worst of all fuels. It produces (from memory, so I may be off a bit) 4 times as much CO2 as gas and twice as much as oil for the same energy.

Mining of coal is horrific. Even out west where they still dig holes, it is terrible for the environment to mine coal. Here in the east, they are literally leveling large swaths of the Appalachian Mountains and turning them into a Mars-scape.

Clean Coal??!!? Hah!

Carbon sequestration by burying the CO2 underground? It might work. How will we know? We probably need to do this for existing plants. But, building new ones is unconscionable.

And, I love trees too. Let’s plant some native species and reforest some large swaths of suburbia. Suburbia is proving to be a failed concept anyway. It is the very definition of unsustainable. Suburbia will be the new slums.

Slumburbs

]]> By: bobbo http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/the-most-important-number-on-earth/#comment-2357 bobbo Wed, 25 Feb 2009 07:47:27 +0000 http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/?p=469#comment-2357 This fun fact just in from Modern Marvels on "Carbon": "Planting 300,000 new trees and allowing tham a full life would offset the carbon dioxide emissions of one 500-megawatt coal fired power plant operating for a little more than one week." What that means to me is----we better start asap on green energy and stop burning coal asap? And always==that I think trees are pretty anyway, even if one tree doesn't balance out a megawatt power plant. Different scale of things. This fun fact just in from Modern Marvels on “Carbon”: “Planting 300,000 new trees and allowing tham a full life would offset the carbon dioxide emissions of one 500-megawatt coal fired power plant operating for a little more than one week.”

What that means to me is—-we better start asap on green energy and stop burning coal asap? And always==that I think trees are pretty anyway, even if one tree doesn’t balance out a megawatt power plant. Different scale of things.

]]> By: Misanthropic Scott http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/the-most-important-number-on-earth/#comment-2356 Misanthropic Scott Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:38:52 +0000 http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/?p=469#comment-2356 bobbo, I think the ocean acidity limit would be expressed simply as PH or as a change in PH from some known time period. I'm not really sure we know how to translate atmospheric PPM of CO2 into ocean PH. Perhaps we do. But, remember, as the ocean warms, it also reduces how much gas it can dissolve, including O2, which, by it's absence, will restrict many fish to higher and higher latitudes. Unfortunately, since the earth is wider at the equator, this means that they will be in ever shrinking sections of ocean. You are right that ocean acidity is merely caused by CO2 rather than being an element of global warming. However, the ocean warming and thus supporting less life is a result of warming. So, there are multiple factors at work here. A third factor in the ocean is simple overfishing. Ocean fisheries output has been declining since 1983 despite continually improving fishing technology and harvesting of new fish stocks, often to commercial extinction, such as Patagonian tooth fish (a.k.a. Chilean sea bass), orange roughy, and other long-lived, slowly reproducing fish. So, yes, all of these go into the reduced medium term carrying capacity of the planet with respect to humans (and most of the other species we care about). More (or less) food for disasturbation, I guess. bobbo,

I think the ocean acidity limit would be expressed simply as PH or as a change in PH from some known time period. I’m not really sure we know how to translate atmospheric PPM of CO2 into ocean PH. Perhaps we do. But, remember, as the ocean warms, it also reduces how much gas it can dissolve, including O2, which, by it’s absence, will restrict many fish to higher and higher latitudes. Unfortunately, since the earth is wider at the equator, this means that they will be in ever shrinking sections of ocean.

You are right that ocean acidity is merely caused by CO2 rather than being an element of global warming. However, the ocean warming and thus supporting less life is a result of warming. So, there are multiple factors at work here.

A third factor in the ocean is simple overfishing. Ocean fisheries output has been declining since 1983 despite continually improving fishing technology and harvesting of new fish stocks, often to commercial extinction, such as Patagonian tooth fish (a.k.a. Chilean sea bass), orange roughy, and other long-lived, slowly reproducing fish.

So, yes, all of these go into the reduced medium term carrying capacity of the planet with respect to humans (and most of the other species we care about).

More (or less) food for disasturbation, I guess.

]]> By: bobbo http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/2008/11/30/the-most-important-number-on-earth/#comment-2354 bobbo Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:26:03 +0000 http://misanthropicscott.wordpress.com/?p=469#comment-2354 Scott--you make me wonder about the "utility" of our climate models. Does it have a firm estimate of the "most important number" for when the ocean gets too acidic to support phytoplankton ((or some other element necessary to the food/oxygen chain?)). Seems to me acidification is NOT an element of global warming--it is concomitant with global warming in that both are caused by increased CO2 in the atmosphere? I have posted several times at DU that I thought we would see the ocean die off while we are still arguing about "the weather." Add it to your growing list of variables that affect the carrying capacity of the earth? (smile!!) Idyllically yours. Scott–you make me wonder about the “utility” of our climate models. Does it have a firm estimate of the “most important number” for when the ocean gets too acidic to support phytoplankton ((or some other element necessary to the food/oxygen chain?)).

Seems to me acidification is NOT an element of global warming–it is concomitant with global warming in that both are caused by increased CO2 in the atmosphere?

I have posted several times at DU that I thought we would see the ocean die off while we are still arguing about “the weather.”

Add it to your growing list of variables that affect the carrying capacity of the earth? (smile!!)

Idyllically yours.

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